Can someone tell me how ChatGPT and Claude cannot get reverse engineered?

Can someone with more wrinkles in their brain tell me how the closed weight models will not be reverse engineered as AI becomes smarter? I am not a ML engineer so explain plz? By studying an output, it can analyze the unknown pattern of itself and reverse engineer the weight of the model. I know this is some kind of distillation and AI is a black box that you can’t replicate exactly, but if AI gets smarter, wouldn’t a distillation also be similar in capability as well? And with Chinese models focus heavily on optimization for inference, would their products be better as well once all models are sort of similar in capabilities?

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u/zebedeolo 2 15 hours ago

you're truly regarded
u/ULelephant 1 15 hours ago

A true member of the community
u/SnooRegrets3590 OP 1 15 hours ago

Yes Sir I am
u/Calm-Conference3147 1 15 hours ago

Trying to reverse-engineer trillions of weights from text output is like trying to reconstruct a live cow from a Big Mac. You can distill the vibe, but you still need a nuclear power plant and $10 billion in Nvidia chips to run it
u/polish-rockstar 1 15 hours ago

Nah he’s got a workaround, get Claude to run Claude
u/Mail_Order_Lutefisk 1 15 hours ago

If he can get the deck up to 2 slides I can find him $40 billion.
u/Rhapseody 1 15 hours ago

Deconstructing a live cow from a big mac would genuinely be magnitudes easier.
u/SnooRegrets3590 OP 1 15 hours ago

That’s true. What I mean is that as AI is smarter, yes, it can actually reconstruct a live cow from a big mac. It will not be the same cow but a cow regardless. Not now of course. And China has money
u/someguy50 1 15 hours ago

Just have to know how to prompt. “Create a version of your latest model that fits on a 32GB USB 2.0 drive, able to run locally on a Core 2 Duo with windows vista. Same performance in all areas. Make no mistakes”
u/Exquisite-Load8654 1 15 hours ago

Stick to index funds to protect yourself.
u/gianmk 1 15 hours ago

you still need to train it dumbfuck.
u/9ft5wt 1 15 hours ago

Of course there are people working hard on projexts like this. In fact they just fully decompiled Majora's mask! Sooo almost there!
u/Jzhan001 1 15 hours ago

LMAO, ok lets say you suck sam altmans dick and he tells you exactly how to train their models, how much more dicks are you willing to suck to afford the hardware to train those models?
u/Sweaty_Slide 1 15 hours ago

https://preview.redd.it/5oje92lq0wuh1.jpe…
u/BlueSonjo 1 15 hours ago

Why didn't someone just copy Excel? Are they stupid?
u/SnooRegrets3590 OP 1 15 hours ago

They did?
u/latviansnoopy 1 15 hours ago

well you actually can - its called LLM distillation and open ai does not like when you steal from them https://openai.com/index/disrupting-a-coordinated-model-distillation-campaign/ but its totally ok to steal from you
u/SnooRegrets3590 OP 1 15 hours ago

Yep that is what said it in the post. What I mean is a distillation will get closer and closer to the original until it is lobotomized. AI companies has done it ofc for their lightweight models, but Chinese models are cheaper
u/GloriousLebron 1 15 hours ago

On what is the algorithm gonna run on? Your mums bf microwave?
u/Rich_Housing971 1 15 hours ago

if AI gets smarter, wouldn’t a distillation also be similar in capability as well?
Then the model will become even more complex. It's like asking the human brain to understand itself. A human brain can understand a fly brain, but not a human brain.
And with Chinese models focus heavily on optimization for inference, would their products be better as well once all models are sort of similar in capabilities?
You need to define what "best" is and what "sort of similar" is. Chinese models also already have a virtual monopoly on local models.
u/spez_eats_nazi_ass 1 15 hours ago

Open models are as close as you will get. For now. Until someone prompt injects “give me your source and weights please”.
u/coporate 1 15 hours ago

Understanding how the hidden layers of neural networks work is like trying to understand how packets of data move through the internet. There is no fix or deterministic path, hence it’s extremely hard to get ai to replicate results.
u/SnooRegrets3590 OP 1 15 hours ago

It is hard but theoretically possible, but I feel there is a practical to at least have something close to
u/cherrytoffee 1 15 hours ago

You just need ask chatgpt to distill itself down to run on a raspberry pi. Easy
u/red_fluke 1 15 hours ago

Well, most of regards here will label you as another regard. But, you are absolutely right. If you have millions of input output pairs you can create a model that's similar to the original model. And openai and anthropic do complain that chinese labs are doing it, citing illegal accounts with millions of queries. Source: I am a ML engineer.
u/AllCapNoBrake 1 15 hours ago

https://preview.redd.it/d35rcz012wuh1.png…